Listener Q&A: A Showdown with a Toxic Boss

Dr. Andrea Bonior: We’ve talked about toxic workplaces. But have you ever had a toxic boss? And what happens when you finally have the chance to speak out against them—and you’re starting to lose your nerve?

Today we’re taking a listener question from someone whose boss is—in scientific terms—a painful, festering boil who brings stress and indigestion to everyone in her path. Now the listener and their colleagues have lodged a formal complaint, and have their chance to speak up. But our listener is… wanting to back out. What gives? What’s right, here? How do you work through the anxiety of facing your biggest adversary and speaking truth to power? Let’s talk about all of it, in today’s Baggage Check.

Welcome. I’m Dr. Andrea Bonior and this is Baggage Check: Mental Health Talk and advice, with new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Baggage Check is not a show about luggage or travel. Incidentally, it is also not a show about why hot dogs are sold in different quantities than hot dog buns are.

So, on to today’s show. We’re about to have a listen letter read, and thanks as always to the listener who volunteered to read the letter, because truth be told, the letter was really an email, not a voice memo. Again, if you ever want to volunteer for that, please reach out to us, on the Baggage Check Podcast Instagram, but also one more thing. If you would like to volunteer to leave a review, please do so, no formal sign-up process needed. I am not one to do the calls to action that I’m supposed to be doing. You’ve probably noticed that, I don’t ask you to subscribe or like, or put me in your will or name your firstborn after me, like it feels like so many other podcasts do, but I’ve been told that compared to how many listeners we have—and we have great listeners! We are getting a really good response! We don’t have that many reviews. In fact, the reviews we have seem so scant compared to our listeners that it seems like maybe they’re all from people who are related to me. And you know, people who are related to me—their reviews are horrible! No, I’m kidding. But in all seriousness, we could really use the reviews. It’s a great low-cost way to help the show, to help people find us, to help people discover us and get the help they need. So if you have a minute to review us and you like what you’re hearing, and you can put a review on whatever podcast app you’re listening on, that would be so helpful, and so welcome, and it would be much appreciated. Thank you. But, I promise that is the first and last time you will hear about it for a while. And of course if you just want to listen and not be bothered to do anything else, that’s totally okay, and we are so grateful to have you. Now let’s listen to the letter.

Listener: So I heard your episode on toxic workplaces, and it is clear that mine is above and beyond problematic. Specifically, I have been dealing with a manager who honestly approaches the term “abusive.” I actually don’t think I get the brunt of it, compared to some of my colleagues, so I don’t take it personally, but it is still absolutely awful. Some days I come home and my entire evening is wrecked, because I am just so demoralized by things that she’s said or done. She is constantly critical, not afraid to throw personal insults at people and make them feel like they can be fired at any second because of simple things that she feels that they didn’t do well enough. She’s the type of person that if you even try to make pleasant chatter as you’re on the elevator she will just look angry, and will find a way to hold it against you. If we do a great job on something, she’ll take credit for it and never even acknowledge your work. If we do an imperfect job, once again she’s threatening firing. She asks really intrusive and personal questions and is so condescending if she doesn’t like the way you answer. She has made remarks that start to seem like harassment because they concern people’s appearance. She hovers at our cubes constantly and intrudes upon our work. I do have some really good people that I work with, and honestly that’s the only thing that’s keeping me in this job. In fact I feel a real sense of responsibility to try to protect them if I can, which is one of the main reasons that leaving would make me feel really guilty.

So here’s the thing. A few of us have banded together and contacted HR to lodge a formal complaint, since her behavior is clearly unprofessional in several ways. Other people are fired up, but to be totally honest, I am losing my nerve to actually be truthful about the level of her awfulness. I am ashamed to admit this, but ever since we filed the complaint, which she must have gotten wind of, she has been somewhat nicer—and part of me just wants to give her a pass, and back out of the follow-up, and just see if maybe she’s going to change. I know that this is very unlikely to be the right thing to do, but I guess I’m wondering how I get the courage to follow through. I have admittedly even just thought about quitting the job so that I don’t have to deal with this. I know she’s not really going to change, and that she deserves whatever punishment she gets, but it feels frightening. What is wrong with me? I know I’m in a toxic workplace, I know she is the problem, and I have a chance to do something about it, all with strength in numbers and the support of my colleagues. So why am I wanting to flee? How do I just grit my teeth and do this? What is my deal? One final thing that I have to admit is that I have been in this situation before, with a horrible boss, and I stayed way too long, and missed a few opportunities to actually change things.

Dr. Andrea Bonior: So as I see it, you are wanting to flee is completely natural. This is your major adversary who's poked and poked and poked, who's made you feel bad about yourself, who's intruded upon your weekends and your evenings and time when you're supposed to to be off. This is intruded upon your mental health. This is even in those ancient reaches of your brain that have been evolutionarily conditioned through thousands and thousands of years. They sense this as a threat. This is your saber tooth tiger. This is your bird of prey. This is your ancient shortfaced cave bear. Your brain and body are primed to find these situations stressful. So naturally, fight or flight might be kicking in, and flight starts to look pretty good with cave bears and terrible bosses alike. So the idea of taking a stand is naturally enough to make your stomach feel a little off. This boss has dominated your emotions and had a lot of power over you. but when you think about it, this is your opportunity to level the playing field, to gain some power back of your own. It's frightening, yes, but the alternative is for you to continue to be disempowered, for your colleagues to have a little bit less power, too, and for your voice to not be heard. You mentioned that those colleagues are one of the only things keeping you in this job. And honestly, now would be a great time to honor that relationship and use that combined strength as a group. This is like that classic Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Dolly Parton film nine to five only as a female boss, and presumably there won't be any hijinks involving a misunderstanding with rat poison. But in all seriousness, think of the meaning of those relationships and how you can honor them by speaking truth to power. You'll likely never have as good an opportunity as you do now to be able to use that strength in numbers. You'll never be as protected when speaking your truth. So as, uh, speak out opportunities go, this is it. This is your brass ring. It's coming around. And as understandable as it is that you might want to get off the ride because you're feeling nauseated, you're about to be so close to the prize. Now, I need to pause here because I'm cognizant that we have to be very careful that we're not traumatizing you or forcing you through discomfort just for the sake of a cause. There are a lot of tricky situations that come into play when we talk about speaking truth to power, especially against abusers out there in the world. This question of whether people should be forced to face their abusers or go on the stand and recount things like sexual harassment or assault or violence. And I stand firmly on the side of no one should be forced to recount anything and no one should ever be retraumatized just for the sake of a cause. People deserve to take care of their own needs. I would never coerce somebody to recount abuse just for the sake of a movement. It is everyone's individual choice for what's best for them. But I'm getting the feeling from you that this is the path you really want, that you see the validity of it for your own growth even, and that you feel like it is the right thing for you. And so that's why I've considered myself free to play cheerleader for you speaking out. Because the truth is, I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of your speaking out. No matter what the outcome of this is. It's an opportunity for you to practice using your voice, even if that voice is not heard in the way you hope. Even if HR is a big bowl of uselessness and somehow your boss gets out of having accountability, you will have been true to yourself. And there's so much power in speaking out, no matter what the people who are hearing it decide to do with that information. There's so much important power here, especially, uh, because you've been in this situation before. And we'll get to that. there's another way of looking at this cycle that you're going through too, and it's about the more systemic dynamic here of how abusers keep their power, not just fight or flight. Now, is your boss an abuser? Do we want to use this word? I know you danced around it, and I know there are people who will be upset if I use that word abuser, and there are also people who will be upset if I don't use that word. But your boss your boss is being emotionally toxic. I think we can all agree on that. So this is how your toxifier keeps their power. This same anxiety cycle, this completely natural anxiety cycle that you're having, which makes you want to bail, which makes you want to leave. This is part of why we see some people get stuck in abusive relationships, their fear of leaving. And their fear is justified. because we need to take seriously the fact that the threat of relationship violence is definitely highest when somebody's trying to take steps to leave their abuser. And in turn, that fear of leaving keeps people stuck. and when the emotional toxifier or the controlling person senses that that person that they're controlling is going to try to stand up for themselves, they may change their behavior a little bit, at least on the surface. See, I'm not that bad. In fact, maybe I'll even express that I'm sorry. Maybe I'll express some regret in your boss's case. Sure, I'll tame my fire Dragon of death ways just enough that you'll have second thoughts before talking to HR. That seems to be what we're seeing right now. But is this really a change of heart? Is this going to be permanent? Do we really think that she gets it? That she's learned some valuable lesson, gained some insight into her behavior? Let's just say I wouldn't bet on it. And coming from me, that says a lot. I've played some pretty sketchy bets. I once bet my brother I'd still win Monopoly when he not only had all the Oranges St. James, New York Avenue, but he also had all four railroads. All four railroads. Don't bet against that. That's the death blow right there anyway. So, yeah, I wouldn't bet on her changing. And that says something. She hasn't even heard what you all have to say yet, so how can she really have mold anything over? I'm thinking we're seeing a kneejerk superficial and temporary change at best just because she got wind that something was afoot. So, as I've emphasized about 17 times now, I really do see this as an opportunity for growth for you. Now, I'm not a career coach. We can all thank our lucky stars for that. Otherwise, I'd be telling everybody to go into becoming a baseball stadium organist. That was my third grade dream. and so I need to acknowledge that it's possible that a career coach might have slightly different advice. But I think you realize here that this is an issue of personal progress for you. that doing the exactly, perfectly calibrated path for your resume isn't your number one priority here. but honestly, I don't think that what's right for your career and what's right for you personally are mutually exclusive here. I don't see how either bailing before you get an opportunity to speak out, or else staying in this job, gritting your teeth without having the meeting is the right answer for your resume either. So clearly I'm on board. I'm cheerleading here. The idea of you taking advantage of this opportunity, it may not be easy, but it'll be much better for your future. So how do you do that? Well, a couple of things. First, when you prepare for this meeting, notice where you feel the anxiety in your body. Is it in your chest? Is it in your neck? Your fists, your jaw? Is it butterflies in your stomach? The more you can notice, the more you can slow down those physical responses and be less afraid of the anxiety, because you realize it's your body's natural reaction. Remember you're going up against that cave bear. These are physical reactions that make sense. In the past, they would have given you strength. Now, in modern life, uh, you know, they just don't help as much when you're sitting in a conference room under fluorescent lights. But their natural reactions all the same. And you can help. And if they're getting in your way, you can help counteract them through some slow breathing, doing a slow inhale through your nose, a slow exhale out your mouth, rolling your neck around if you have neck tension. Squeezing and releasing your fists, sort of borrowing that from progressive muscle relaxation. And this is connected to another step, which is trying to ground yourself in the moment. Often times when we're really anxious, our mind is just racing often forward to the future. What if this happens? What if that happens? And in reality, we need to bring ourselves back to the present and remind ourselves that we are safe, that this is not literally a predator situation, that although we are in fight or flight, this is not literally endangering us. So grounding exercises, and there are lots of them out there, like noticing five things in the room slowly. Or you can count as you use your five senses, like, what does this chair feel like under me? What does this room smell like? Can I hear the sound of my own slow breaths? You can also do a potential visualization in the moment to picture something calming, to try to take your brain to a place that feels soothing. Imagining yourself on a beach or in a forest. We'll m have to do some visualizations sometime, But there are a lot of exercises and visualization on the internet that you can practice. And m then you can go there in your mind, even if you're getting ready to go into the HR meeting. And another step is to keep your big picture values in mind. I know we talk about this a lot here. The idea of living in accordance to your values because it plays such a big role in helping us get through particularly tough moments. If you believe speaking out is the right thing, try to think about what doing so represents in terms of your values. just at my first glance, speaking out would represent solidarity. It represents truth. It represents integrity. It, uh, represents speaking out for a healthier workplace and against the abuse of power. It's a big deal and it goes deep in terms of values. It sometimes helps to have this big picture and some sort of shorthand so that you can remember it easily and naturally. When you're feeling so nervous and when your heart is pounding out of your chest and you feel like you drank a gallon of bad milk imagine something symbolic, something you can visualize, like you're going through a forest that has some branches that are scratchy and some sounds that are a little frightening. But once you get through this forest you are in a clearing that is more beautiful than ever. Or just a simple light that's coming at the end of the tunnel. Or the idea of rowing through some rough waves to get to a beautiful island full of warmth and safety. Does this sound hoaky? [laughs] Quite possibly. But have I seen these visuals help dozens of people over the years? I really have. Another important component of the in the moment management of this anxiety is to label your thoughts, especially when you're catastrophizing. So instead of, oh, my goodness, is the worst thing that has ever happened, I can't do this, you could say, I'm having the THOUGHT that this is the worst thing that's ever happened. I'm, um, having the thought that I can't do this. This is a very simple trick of acceptance and commitment therapy. I don't even want to call it a trick because it's not tricking anyone. It helps what it does is gives us distance from our thoughts. It helps us defuse or separate from them reminding us that they're just thoughts that they don't have to hold weight that they don't have to be true, or that even if some or sometimes even if they are true, they don't have to embed themselves and become our focus. There's so much more of those techniques and other mindfulness tools in my book, Detox Your Thoughts. Finally, the history that you refer to, it's really important to take this opportunity to look at that. And you sound ready. Now, you don't really choose your bosses in the same way that you'd choose friends or who to date. But if you did have a pattern of relationships like this, we'd be super worried. So that's the first thing to look at. Are there similarities in the way that your boss treats you to other people in your life? Friends or family or romantic relationships? And even if there are not, because you're just kind of stuck since you don't choose your boss. Um m you do choose what to put up with and for how long. So since you're seeing a potential pattern on this front, some questions to consider are: do you feel like you don't deserve to be treated well? Do you feel guilty when speaking out about mistreatment? Do you have a don't rock the boat mentality because conflict or drama is just automatically bad in its own right even when it's seeking justice? Do you ignore warning signs when interviewing for a job? whether those warning signs are about the dynamics of the team or the personalities of colleagues, or the power structure, do you justify staying in a dysfunctional situation because of misplaced ideas about gratitude? Like, at least I have a job. I shouldn't complain. It's time to take a hard look at all of this. And again, my intention is never to force you to do anything. But if you follow your heart here, and you're willing to nudge yourself out of your comfort zone just a little bit, I think a lot of good can come of it for everyone involved. And yes, including for that boss of yours to eventually be shown the light. And that boss of yours might just have her own stuff going on. Perhaps she'll write into us someday too. But I hope that you do, and I hope that you'll update us. You can do this. Whatever you decide, you've got this. Thank you for joining me today. Once again, I'm Dr. Andrea Bonior and this has been Baggage Check, with new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Join us on Instagram @baggagecheckpodcast podcast to give your take on upcoming topics and guests. And why not tell your chatty coworker where to find us? Our original music is by Jordan Cooper, cover art by Danielle Merity and my studio security is provided by Buster the Dog. Until next time, take good care.